Ariel Lavery: Hey Austin.
Austin Carter: Hey Ariel.
Ariel Lavery: So, it’s been about a year-and-a-half since we first found out that we got the grant with PRX to start this podcast, right?
Austin Carter: Yup.
Ariel Lavery: So you remember all the teams that were part of our cohort with Project Catapult at PRX?
Austin Carter: Of course.
Ariel Lavery: And I’m sure you remember the team from Black in Appalachia?
Austin Carter: Yes, I certainly do. What wonderful people they were to meet and work with.
Ariel Lavery: (laughs) Indeed. So, we’ve got a really great episode we’re gonna hear today.
Austin Carter: I know we’re so excited to share this podcast with our audience.
Ariel Lavery: Enkeshi and Angela are the hosts of this podcast and they explore so many facets of what it is to be Black in Appalachia.
Austin Carter: Absolutely, and it’s organized around a broader initiative that’s helping to document history of Black people in Appalachia, and really making a difference in their community.
Ariel Lavery: Now, I thought this show was really interesting because I think a lot of people around the US probably have the idea that there’s very few Black people actually residing in Appalachia.
Austin Carter: Yeah, I think that would be a common misconception.
Ariel Lavery: One town in particular we’re going to be hearing about is Corbin, Kentucky.
Austin Carter: I’m familiar with Corbin as a Kentuckian because it was the home of the very first Kentucky Fried Chicken and, uh, the town where the colonel resided.
Ariel Lavery: (laughs) Right! And even though we knew about this part of Corbin’s history, one thing that I personally didn’t know was its history as a sundown town.
Austin Carter: I didn’t know that either, but I am a little familiar with the idea of sundown towns ‘cause, having grown up in Western Kentucky, there still some places that have kind of a bad reputation for being unwelcoming to Black people.
Ariel Lavery: That being said, there is some sensitive content in this episode as well as some explicit language. So, if you’re listening with younger listeners, you might want to take a break from us at the moment.
Austin Carter: We’re really happy to get to introduce you to the hosts Enkeshi and Angela, so without further ado, here’s Black in Appalachia.
(sound of a tractor trailer)
James Baines: I'm James Baines, and I'm Black in Appalachia.
(Black in Appalachia theme music starts)
Bill Turner: You know Bob Dylan. Somebody had a tune that said you don't have to be a weatherman to know when it's raining.
Enkeshi El-Amin: This is Enkeshi El-Amin, sociologist of race in place in Black Appalachian experiences.
Angela Dennis: This is Angela Dennis, literary activist and journalist specializing in race and socioeconomic issues.
Enkeshi El-Amin: And you're listening to...
Enkeshi and Angela: … The Black in Appalachia podcast! Whoop, whoop!
Enkeshi El-Amin: What's up Angela?
Angela Dennis: Hey Enkeshi.
Enkeshi El-Amin: So, we're back again. Another episode.
Angela Dennis: Yes, we are!
Enkeshi El-Amin: We made it, we made it! (laughs)
Angela Dennis: Second episode.
Enkeshi El-Amin: What is the second episode about?
Angela Dennis: So, this episode we're gonna be talking about (rolls tongue) Corbin, Kentucky. That was my drum roll by the way...
Enkeshi El-Amin: We goin’ have to work on the drum roll. (both laugh) But, we're talking about Corbin, Kentucky. We're talking about sundown towns. We're talking about KFC. What else? We're talking about…
(background noise of being in a car)
Angela Dennis: KKK sundown towns.
Enkeshi El-Amin: So, you remember the day when we were driving to London, Kentucky and we drove through that town where the lines on the side of the street turned from white to red?
Angela Dennis: Oh, yes. It was funny. It was like the white margin lines on the road all of a sudden turn red. That was mad weird.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, it was really weird. And we- I remember, like, we were joking. Like, what? Wouldn't it be cool if like Black people were the only ones that could see those lines. I could see them turning red, like some sort of...
Angela Dennis: … Get Out shit. (laughs)
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, like a sign like “Be aware! Be aware where we are! Red lines, red lines!” And what was even more weird about this situation was that William knew exactly where we were, like, these red lines. Like, we were looking at these red lines. And he was like, “I bet y'all we in Corbin,” right?
Angela Dennis: We're looking at him like… what?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right, and so to say that Corbin reminds you of Get Out is not an overstatement. You know, and for those of you who don't know, Get Out was this 2017 horror film by Jordan Peele where this Black guy from New York City goes to lily white-ass suburb, in I don't know -- Blank, Upstate New York -- to meet his girlfriend's family.
Angela Dennis: His white girlfriend.
Enkeshi El-Amin: His white girlfriend. Yes. He goes to New York to this suburb to meet the family of his white girlfriend and ends up in, like, this weird-ass, bizarre-ass, racist ass shit. Where like, he almost loses his life.
Angela Dennis: Yeah, right. Sticks basically.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Exactly.
Angela Dennis: But the movie is funny to me, because it sort of like, makes you cringe because as like a Black person. You know it's a horror film, but not like a regular horror film where you can say like, oh, that would never happen. It's sort of like you feel like this shit could really actually happen.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Exactly. And the place where it would happen is probably Corbin. (both laugh)
(guitar riff music starts, momentary sound of a train whistle halfway through)
So Corbin is a small town near the border of Tennessee and Kentucky on the Kentucky side. And at the height of the coal mining era it was a railroad junction for the Louisville Nashville Railroad Company. It has a population of about 7,200 people. And like many Appalachian towns, it has a lot of natural beauty. Right, so Corbin is the home of the Cumberland Falls State Park, which is referred to as the Niagara of the South.
Angela Dennis: What..what is that?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, I don't know. I've never, never heard of that before. But, also Corbin is home of the Laurel Lake. And according to the cities tourism site, Corbin is the only place in the Western Hemisphere where you can see the moonbow (echoed ‘wow’ plays) and if you're like us and had no idea-
Angela Dennis: Wait, I know what the moonbow is actually!
Enkeshi El-Amin: What is the moonbow?
Angela Dennis: It's like, um, it's a rainbow produced by moonlight but not sunlight.
Enkeshi El-Amin: So like an actual, like arch.
Angela Dennis: It's at night, but it's at night. Like some random light by the moon.
Enkeshi El-Amin: So a moonbow is pretty cool, right? But Corbin's claim to fame, the thing that Corbin is most known for is-... drum roll! (pause) (whispers) You were supposed to do my drumroll....
(ound of a drumroll starts)
Angela Dennis: (rolls tongue) (both laugh)
Enkeshi El-Amin: Alright, Corbin is the home of KFC.
Angela Dennis: Like... Kentucky Fried Chicken…?
(Clip of Colonel Sanders speaking to an audience starts)
Colonel Sanders: I'm Colonel Sanders and I'd like to tell you a little bit about my Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Enkeshi El-Amin: KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken. The KFC. Like, the colonel was, like, created in Corbin. So that is Corbin's claim to fame. There's a big ass statue of the KFC guy. And there's like the first KFC there you can go and get chicken. Right? And they have this cool ass drink called White lightning … no, sweet lightning.
Angela Dennis: No, that was Williams made-up shit.
Enkeshi El-Amin: No, the drink was called Sweet lightning.
Angela Dennis: Was it?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah. William was white lightning, the drink was called sweet lightning.
Angela Dennis: Are you sure?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, positive!
Angela Dennis: Moving on! Okay, but my next question is, are there any Black people in Corman?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Well, I'm glad you asked. Right? Because for me, when I learn of a new place, that is the first thing I want to know, like, are there Black people in this place? And, so I found out that in Corbin, the Black population is 0.05% of the total population.
Angela Dennis: So that's not even technically a person.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Well, I mean, I don't know what it is. (both laughing) I don't know what 0.05% of anything is, right. So, of course, you know, like we're always throwing shade on Knoxville talking about how, like, small the Black population here is, but Corbin makes Knoxville look like Atlanta.
Angela Dennis: Yeah, that is...that's crazy.
Enkeshi El-Amin: That's sad. That’s what it is. It's sad, right? So, of course, I wanted to know, like, exactly what is 0.05% of this population. And, so I put in a calculator, and I found out that there are 3.6 Black persons in Corbin. Right. So literally, there are three and a half Black people living in Corbin.
Angela Dennis: (both laughing) Three and a half! Where are the rest of the Black people?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, I don't know. I-I'm wondering the same thing. I'm like….
Angela Dennis: Why are the… Why are 3.6 Black people there?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I wouldn't be a part of that 3.6. I'm not-I'm not living in any place where the population is 3.6? I mean, 0.05% Black, right? So, that brought me to discovering that Corbin was what you would call a sundown town.
Angela Dennis: A what?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, it's a sundown town. Sundown town is a place where certain people are not allowed past a certain time. Right? So, generally, this was targeted at people of color. But, really, it was a way to keep Black people out of certain places, right? So sundown towns started popping up across the United States in the post-Reconstruction era, around 1890 to about 1940. So, at this time, we're seeing the Great Migration in full swing, Black people are moving from the south and moving from rural areas into the North, the West, you know, other places. Black people are moving around the United States, right? So, these towns are sort of popping up as a way to sort of limit the movement and relocation of Black people into certain places.
Angela Dennis: So you're saying people had to, like, leave the town by a certain time?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, like once the sun set, these people had to go, right? And I don't know how common it was, but in some places, I know that there would be a siren or some sort of whistle that will go off at about six o'clock, that pretty much lets people know, like, hey, It's time.
(siren plays in the background)
Enkeshi El-Amin: It's time to wrap it up. Like wrap up your shopping, whatever you're doing. It's time for you to get out.
Angela Dennis: Were people you know, in town during the day, light hours to shop and work. And then I guess after they got off or done doing whatever business they had, they had to bounce?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, yeah. So in places like Corbin, people could work in the town in the daytime, and they can go shopping, right? Maybe around holidays, or something people might go into town. So, you might live in London, Kentucky, but shop in Corbin. But, around this time, when it starts it gets dark. People knew to wrap up their shop or you know, start getting off at work, whatever, it's time for you to go.
Angela Dennis: So, like how would people know before they got to town? Or let's say they were a newcomer? That this was a sundown town?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah. So, I think generally, people knew about sundown towns through word of mouth from generation to generation, it was sort of something that, you know, your parents or your grandparents sort of warned you about, like don't go to certain places or don't be there past a certain time. But, apart from that, sort of, oral tradition, there were signs, right? There were these signs in sundown towns that let people know, like, this is a sundown town, right? So, there would be signs at like the main entrance to the town or in some strategic place that would say some version of, “Nigger, don't let the sun catch your ass, or, catch you in blank town.”
Angela Dennis: Like, verbatim?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, like nigga. Don't let the sun go down on your, you know, Black ass in Tennessee. There was a sundown town where there was a donkey. Like, like this Black donkey that was sort of like on a sign.
Angela Dennis: Oh, like a Black ass?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah. Like, don't let the sunset on your Black. Ass. Donkey. Here. (both laugh) And people knew like, you know, now they might tell you that meant something else. But people knew what that meant. Right?
Angela Dennis: So yeah, I'm wondering if anyone has actually seen any of these signs? Are there any, you know, in any museums or preserved anywhere?
Enkeshi El-Amin: That's a great question. I'm not sure if there are any that are preserved. I know that the Schomburg Center in New York had a discussion recently on sundown towns, but I don't know if they actually were able to locate, assign, and have one. I think it'd be pretty cool to see one, but I do know that people have seen them in person, right? So like Dr. Bill Turner, for example, who is an expert in the field of Black Appalachian studies. He's a sociologist who was actually one of the first persons to publish on the Black experience in Appalachia. And, he remembers seeing the Corbin sign, right? So he grew up in Lynch, Kentucky, which is near Corbin, and told us a story about when he was growing up and saw the sign in Corbin.
(phone rings)
Bill Turner: Hello?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Hi, Dr. Turner. As you know, we are doing some research and in some work on the Corbin expulsion and Corbin being a sundown town.
Bill Turner: Alright.
Enkeshi El-Amin: And we know that you grew up in Harlan, which is near Corbin. So we wanted to talk to you, really, about the sign. Do you remember the signs that let people know when to get out of Corbin?
Bill Turner: We didn't have to see those signs that were there. You just knew about it, because people told us, they warned each other. They knew each other. They knew about Corbin, okay? So, my mom was born about 45 miles from Corbin in 1924. And so, you know, she knew all about that place. We didn't have to see the signs in Corbin. But, my personal experience, I was about 11 years old, which meant it was 1957. My father and I were going fishing and there was no Interstate 75, you know that highway that runs between Knoxville and say, London, go right through Corbin there at exit 39 I think that is. But anyway, at the time, it was US Highway 25W that ran between, let's say Cincinnati and Knoxville.
(calming music starts)
Bill Turner: It was 25W, just kind of wound through these little towns. And once, as Tom said, it went to Corbin, and Corbin as I said earlier, had this well known reputation for being an unwelcoming place to Black people. My dad and I were going fishing and we stopped in one of these typical 19, mid 50’s era service stations. And my father, you know, he knew what the deal was, there was a big sign up there that read something to the effect. “If you a nigga, run, get out of here. And if you can't read get out of here anyway.”
Angela Dennis: Interesting. So, were, like, these laws? Or was it just a set of rules that white people basically made up? And was like, do this...or else?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, in some cases. These were actual ordinances, right. So like, these were local government officials sort of putting these things on the books, right? So, for example, when I mentioned about the whistles, the case that I'm thinking about was one where the whistle was placed on top of a water tower in a town, right? And so these are the towers that say, welcome to such and such place, right? So, this is something that has to sort of be approved by the local officials. In other cases, they weren't as official. So, they were more like informal laws, but they were maintained by violence or the threat of violence.
Angela Dennis: So what happens if Black people decided, you know, to break these rules or not abide by these ordinances?
Enkeshi El-Amin: I honestly can't say that I know for sure. But, I do think that given the time period, given what we know about Jim Crow America, the rise of the KKK, that people weren't necessarily trying to find out, right, so people weren't trying to break these rules, if possible, because, of course, you know, the repercussions for these things can be violence, right? And funnily enough, you know, coming back to William knowing about Corbin. William actually told me a story about his great-great-great-great-grandfather, I think, who was actually beaten by the KKK for being in a sundown town past time.
Angela Dennis: Oh, wow.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah. Can you tell us about the story of your great-great-great-great?
William Isom: Two great’s! It’s my great-great-
Enkeshi El-Amin: (laughs) Oh, just great-great?
William Isom: My great-great, grandfather Lilburne Chestnut.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Lilburne, tell us about Lilburne Chestnut and his sundown town story.
William Isom: Yeah. So, I came across Lilburne’s story when I had traced back Lilburne, to his slave owner in Hawkins County, Tennessee, this small town called St. Clair and I'd found Lilburne listed as property in a slave owner's will.
William Isom: So Lilburne was an enslaved person.
William Isomm: Him and his mother were enslaved on the Chestnut Plantation in St. Clair, Tennessee. So, I'd found him listed as property. Which was really exciting at first and then it was like, and then the reality of what that really meant hit and it was like, ohh.... so then you get a little mad. And then you're like, well, you know, like, Lilburne survived.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right. Right. Because you're here.
William Isom: Yeah. And so, I went through a whole range of emotions when I found that information. But, one of the things I also found was that the house is still there.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Get out. The house that...
William Isom: That Lilburne was enslaved in. It was still there, and he may have helped build.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Wow.
William Isom: This big brick mansion.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Did you go see it?
William Isom: I went and knocked on their door.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Get out.
William Isom: Yeah. And the family still owns it.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Whew… Okay. (both laugh) Okay, so you didn't tell me that part. That is wild. Tell me about that.
William Isom: I said, hey, “My great-granddad used to be a slave here. Do y'all have any old photographs or any information about him or his family? Because we don't have anything.” And they kind of hemmed and hawed, they were kind of surprised and not really saying much.
Enkeshi El-Amin: So these are white folks.
William Isom: These are white folks. And so, I gave them a little bit. And then I-I called them and they said, “Hey, you know, come back.” And they actually had stuff for me. In particular, in this, no photographs, which is really what I wanted. They had this book, this kind of photocopied book that was called My Life and My Work by Reverend Pharaoh Lee Cobb. And this memoir was written in 1898.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Wow.
William Isom: So this guy, Pharaoh Lee Cobb, and this probably, 100-plus page manuscript, had one page about Lilburne Chestnut. Because, apparently when Lilburne’s slave owner died, the slave owner's will gave Lilburne to Pharaoh Lee Cobb's mother. I found in this manuscript, a description about Lilburne and his mother's life. Maybe one page, which was, like, invaluable for me it’s like, oh, like, there's all this information, like, I never knew!
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right.
William Isom: And so, the section in particular that stood out to me in regards to what we were talking about, goes like this, “Some humorous incidents appear in the record of Lilburne, though not too humorous to Lilburne. One involved the rule that no Negro could be out from home after sundown. When the Ku Klux found that he was in the habit of being in St. Clair after the limit, they decided to whip him one night, Lil’ got wind of their plan and started home in a hurry. But, they followed him and got a few strokes with the switches before he got home.”
Enkeshi El-Amin: That is...um... interesting, deep. I'm sure it was hard to read. Like, that was the first thing that you came across, right? But, what was interesting to me is just, like, thinking about sundown towns, even before this sort of time period that we see them sort of popping up all over America, right? Like, sundown towns have a history, sort of, before that, to me, it was sort of like a new idea that we saw in this post reconstruction period where these towns that are becoming sundown towns are sort of like “no Blacks after the sunset.” But, that had a history. So, like that wasn't something new, like, that idea of Black people not being out and about beyond the setting of the sun. That is really interesting, because he lived in that town. This was not a town that he was going to and coming back, right. But, it was sort of like, the sundown rule enforcing Black folks, even in places where they live. That's crazy.
William Isom: And the interesting part for me in particular, because I grew up, dad telling me like Corbin, Irwin, like no, we don't go over there. You leave them people alone, don’t go over there. And so, we had comps on that house. We just said we just don't go over there.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right.
William Isom: But, St. Clair in Hawkins County was not one of those places. So, Hawkins County was generally free reign. So, that was considered, like, an area that was ,like, our home place. Like, where our great-great-grandparents and stuff were from. I was never warned about this area, when at this time during Reconstruction was a sundown town, or post-Reconstruction. So it's interesting, because that doesn't exist now.
Enkeshi El-Amin: How close is Sinclair from Morristown?
William Isom: About 15 minutes east of Morristown.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Okay. This time period that Lilburne was traversing Sinclair, you're saying that that time period is a post-Reconstruction time period?
William Isom: Well, I could have my timeline wrong. It's certainly after the Civil War, after emancipation.
Enkeshi El-Amin: So, he is a free man at this time. So he's not an enslaved person at this time.
William Isom: Right. Because you think the Klu Klux didn’t...
Enkeshi El-Amin: Well, that's true! Of course, of course.
William Isom: ...didn’t come into being until after the Civil War.
Enkeshi El-Amin: That’s right! So, then it does kind of go hand in hand with the time period that we're thinking about sundown towns popping up. But, it's still a difference…
William Isom: It's early, it’s still early.
Enkeshi El-Amin: It’s still early, but it's also different in the sense that again, people were living in these towns like it was a sundown town, but people actually lived there. Like, Black folks live there. So, that makes me think about the couple of Black people that lived in Corbin during the time period that it was a sundown town, because we found out that about two people lived there, right? Or at least two people that we knew of. So I'm curious to know, did that law apply to them as well, like, when the sun set did they, sort of, start heading home? Or could they be out? Right, which is something I hadn't thought about until hearing this?
William Isom: Yeah, I would beg to wager that probably nobody stuck around downtown Corbin. And a lot of these things, you know, most of these racial atrocities and violence occurred not in the stereotypical, out in the country, out in the boonies. These things occurred in town.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right.
William Isom: Where there was like economic and political interest that people had to protect. And so these things didn't occur out in the boonies, they occurred downtown.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right, right.
William Isom: They occurred in the city.
Enkeshi El-Amin: When we think about the KKK I think, at least for me, and this is not to say that I'm not aware of, like, you know, like violence against Black people, but it still seems a bit distant, right? You know, but to think that, like, somebody in your lineage actually experienced you know, a beating on you know, by the KKK like that’s... that’s deep for me.
William Isom: Yeah, it's, uh... It puts things in perspective.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah.
(funky music starts)
Ad Break
Enkeshi El-Amin: So, after William and I had this conversation, this is sort of what got me interested in knowing more about sundown towns and, you know, asking him about Corbin and things like that. And really, a lot of the research that I found came from Dr. James Loewen Sundown Towns, right? So, he wrote a book about sundown towns and he's probably the most well known scholar on sundown towns.
Angela Dennis: Yeah, I was noticing that book the other day, I saw it on the desk over here and just was skimming through it. And some of the towns that I saw were actually, you know, familiar like Cookeville, Tennessee and Lenore City. Here locally, Forsyth in Georgia, even Anaheim, California and Bakersfield. Just several sundown towns have pretty much, they were scattered kind of all over the United States.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah. And what Dr. Loewen said, is that sundown towns, there were thousands of them, right? So, he's from Illinois. And he found out that in his state, there were over 500, right. So, these towns are all over the United States. And what's interesting is that a lot of them are not in your traditional south, there are tons of them in the Midwest, and in the West and up north, right, and a lot of places that you might not associate with Black people. And I'm guessing that a reason for this is because the South has been a stronghold for African Americans, a traditional size, right. And so as people are moving throughout America during the Great Migration, I really think that these laws were just really sort of trying to stop them in their tracks.
Angela Dennis: Right. And these kind of feel that that might be why, you know, a town such as Corbin, Kentucky only has, you know, the 3.6 Black people, you know, currently residing there as a result of, you know, its history.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Yeah, I think it's definitely the reason why we only see 3.6 Black people in Corbin. But like, how cool would it be if we found, you know, like, one of those Black people from Corbin?
Angela Dennis: What if I did?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Shut up!
Angela Dennis: Nah, I'm dead ass serious.
Enkeshi El-Amin: You found- You found-
Angela Dennis: What if I did?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Well, you found the Black people in Corbin?
(energized music starts)
Angela Dennis: You know my Facebook stays lit. So, I had decided to make a post the other day. And I just asked everyone on my friends list. Does anyone know anyone in Corbin, Kentucky? And I actually got some responses and they tagged this one girl in particular named Camilla.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Get out! Okay, so what does Camilla have to say about Corbin? Like, how did she end up there?
Camilla: I've lived in Corbin for about three-and-a-half or four years. I grew up in Middlesboro, which is about 40 minutes south.
Angela Dennis: Okay. So, we were looking at the numbers as far as the Black population in Corbin and of course, it's pretty close to none (laughs).
Camilla: Yeah.
Angela Dennis: What is your experience like there?
Camilla: Currently, I feel like the racial tension is non-existent.
Angela Dennis: Okay.
Camilla: Of course, you're gonna find people everywhere. Who still hold those, that, you know, that bigotry within them. Um, but I feel like Corbin has worked really hard as a community to be accepting and to kind of shy away from that history some. But, I also think it's important that we acknowledge that.
Angela Dennis: Teaching the history of Corbin and kind of how far it's come.
Camilla: Right. Now, my dad is a Middlesboro native. And his dad was a Middlesboro native. So, my grandfather grew up, he was, he hauled coal to various areas. And it was just always known that he was not allowed to haul to Corbin.
Angela Dennis: Was that your father who was African American?
Camilla: My grandfather and my father.
Angela Dennis: Okay, okay.
Camilla: So, my grandfather had several coal routes in Middlesboro. And more that way. However, when it came to Corbin, he was very adamant that like him and the kids, you know, my father would not haul this way, would not haul to Corbin. And even when my husband and I, and you know, tell my dad, three or four years ago, you know, “Dad, we're gonna move down to Corbin to buy a house.” He was kind of hesitant.
Angela Dennis: Right.
Camilla: He remembers a time when there were signs that basically said, “no Black people allowed, will be shot on site.”
Angela Dennis: Yep.
Camilla: So, I think those things were kind of hard for him to shake, but now that he's been here, and he's visited us and he’s spent more time here, he feels better about that.
Angela Dennis: Okay, if you don't mind? What is the, do you know the names of your father? Like, their last names and your grandfather?
Camilla: Yes. My grandfather was very well known in the Middlesboro and Pineville area. He hauled coal. His name was Buddy Helms. H-E-L-M-S.
Angela Dennis: Okay.
Camilla: And my father is still very well-known. I can't go anywhere without like, oh, why, aren’t you Kenneth’s daughter? So, he was Kenneth Helms.
Angela Dennis: Okay.
Camilla: And my maiden name is Helms as well.
Angela Dennis: Okay. Interesting. So you said it's just you and your husband that lived there, and have the kids?
Camilla: It is, we currently do not have any kids. But, it's interesting because we are foster parents.
Angela Dennis: Okay!
Camilla: And we actually are looking to bring a foster son in, and he is biracial. So I'm very curious what his experience will be.
Angela Dennis: Especially in the schools and stuff, you think?
Camilla: Exactly, exactly.
Angela Dennis: Because I saw a story that was I think, from 2017 or 2018. About one of the high schools that was in the news. The basketball team there...
Camilla: Yes.
Angela Dennis: Some of them, like rolled some racial slurs to the visiting team, which was mostly African American or something like that. So yeah, that will be definitely interesting to see how their experience is in public schools. It's, I mean, we have that here, even in Knoxville. So I can imagine Corbin would be similar...
Camilla: Right. Well, my foster son that just left us, he was white. And he was 15. So, he actually had experience at our local high school. And he, he was always like, there are just no, you know, he lived for a long time in Florida. So he was like, why are there no white people here? And I was like, that's just how it is. You know, I think he told me that in his school, there were maybe two Black guys. And he was like, I just think that's so weird, mom. But, he's no longer with us. But I'm curious to see how it'll be to have a younger child who will grow up in the school system in this area.
Angela Dennis: Right.
Camilla: Very curious.
Angela Dennis: Well, hopefully it goes okay.
Camilla: I hope so, we hope to get this little fella here pretty soon, so….
Angela Dennis: Right. Well, thanks for taking the time...
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Angela Dennis: So, I think Camilla's story is really interesting. In my opinion, she seems like she's doing pretty well in Corbin. I do think that perhaps her experience might be a little easier. Being that, you know, she's the point six, she's biracial. So, she could have a different experience than someone you know, perhaps that look like yourself, or you know, my daughter, so she might be faring a little better than someone residing there who appears, you know, definitely African American by appearance.
Enkeshi El-Amin: But, even with all that, I do think that she's still aware of the racial issues. And she's definitely concerned about what it might be for her to have a Black child, she wants to be a foster mom, and she's thinking about having a Black child. So, she's definitely thinking about, like, what it's gonna be like for her to have a Black child living in Corbin.
Angela Dennis: Yeah, she appeared like she was, you know, concerned.
Enkeshi El-Amin: Right. So, to me, that tells me that there's still issues and at least things might seem okay for her as a lighter-skinned Black person that might be able to pass for white, but for her Black child it might not be the same, right. And so, you know, just, you know, as much as we learned about Corbin, and it being a sundown town, I still have a ton of questions. So, I want to know, first, how did Corbin become a sundown town? And what if there's anything, Is there anything being done to sort of like really address that...that history?
Enkeshi El-Amin: Okay, so we have come to the close of this episode, we've talked about a lot of things, a lot to unpack here, we definitely need to come back to Corbin again. So, we encourage you all to stick around to make sure that you get the rest of the Corbin story, but it's the end of this episode. (voice fades out)
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Ariel Lavery: Austin that was an amazing episode and so informative about what sundown towns actually are.
Austin Carter: I love how much fun Enkeshi and Angela have. If you’d like to hear more visit them online at blackinappalachia.org. If you’d like to hear more from us you can visit our website, middleofeverywherepod.org. Sign up for our newsletter while you’re there. We’re also on Facebook and Instagram @middleofeverywherepod and on Twitter @ruralstories.
Ariel Lavery: middle of everywhere is a production of PRX and WKMS. This program is made possible in part by the corporation for public broadcasting, a private organization funded by the American people.